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Aubrey Marcus Interviews Alejo Sanzón: Chavín, Ancient Wisdom & The Time of Change

Chapter 1: Introduction & The Current Time of Prophecy

Once out of my Maloca, I found a chonta sort of attack of witchcraft.

Aubrey Marcus: What was it that you were telling me about the procession of the equinoxes, the alignments with the temple and how old the temple of Chavín might actually be?

Alejo Sanzón: It has an engineering of very exact precision. And that means the temple had more or…

Good to be here. Like many conversations we’ve had, just with way less medicine.

One of the things that I’ve enjoyed the most about working with you both, and particularly you, is not only is it a ceremony that we enter into but it’s also more importantly a conversation. And it’s a conversation that is accessing a whole body of wisdom that many people have never known, that has been forgotten or at least never told.

I want to open this by just asking about this time that we’re in right now. You have a lot of wisdom from the elders and the ways that you’ve learned. Is there any prophecy or any way in which they currently understand this situation that we find ourselves in in the world? That would be helpful for us orienting ourselves to this period of great change.

Alejo Sanzón: Thank you very much for this opportunity. I’m just asking permission with this tobacco and asking for all the essence of the basket of our elders to accompany the world.

The thinking of this time is a very broad thinking. It’s not just saying one word that this is happening, but rather many things are converging in this time.

But before entering, I remember when I asked and said, “Grandfather, how do we know?” And the old one said, “The most important thing is that prophecy is always a decision.”

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Chapter 2: Prophecy as Decision & The Opportunity of This Time

As he shared it, he said that the elders didn’t prophesy in the sense that they predicted the future, but rather they sowed something. They planted a prayer trusting that a people would appear who would be capable of receiving it and making it happen.

Yes, that we were going to find it. And with this I’m not taking away from how the ancient perspective sees the transitions. But it’s more about it being an opportunity. And it serves us, and we are in the decision.

So under that clarity, we can understand that the elders spoke of the cycles of time, different movements that are transiting the wiñay process, the evolutionary process of creation.

And having arrived at this point, it’s a point where history says that the learnings that are lived will be necessary for that. And in that, many things open up.

I remember very well that in 2009 a council of elders spoke about a pandemic coming, among other things, and they said, “We have to prepare ourselves in this way.”

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Chapter 3: The Purge and the Time of Re-Encounter (Taripa)

When 2020 arrived and that pandemic appeared, I was grabbing my head. At what moment was I patient? Thank God.

Locked in our houses and suddenly many other things — wars and beyond wars, forms of thought that the elders were observing.

This time, what they call “taripa,” means the time of re-encounter, the time where barriers and borders dissolve.

And the first thing that begins to dissolve is what separates above and below. It’s a process that a teacher compared to saying that for something to evolve and find its center, it has to dissolve in order to then coagulate again in its pure essence.

So that’s how the elders spoke of it: it was a mechanism of purification.

And now is the moment to gather again.

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Chapter 4: Parasites — Literal, Psychic & Societal

When we see this time and it begins to show this purge… I remember a conversation where there was a kind of compassion because the elders also say that this is the time when the earth needs an antiparasitic.

The elders say: “It’s not that all the worms have to leave, but rather to decide: What do you want to be? Do you want to be a parasite that will be eliminated, or do you want to be part of what remains?”

Returning to what we were talking about, when the elders said that word “parasite” it was quite strong, because there are many things that are deeply rooted in us and that will have to be pulled out, and that can be painful.

This is going to get stronger, stronger and stronger. So what are we going to do?

And the word we arrived at is: if all of that is difficult and it’s happening, then we trust that the beautiful things that are also going to happen will come. And it’s not only that they will happen, but that they are already happening.

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Chapter 5: Co-Creators, Not Creators — Thinking Beautiful Thoughts

The grandfather also used to say this idea that we are not creators but co-creators. And that’s a small but important difference.

With that thinking we can understand that all things are also conditioned by the sum of our minds.

So the elders say: “What are you thinking? How are you thinking?” The elders of the Amazon say: “Think beautifully.” That’s the highest teaching. Think beautifully from there onward.

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Chapter 6: The Interconnectedness of Life & Four Seats of Knowledge

The elders always say that we have to gather the past, because “ñaupa” is what is behind, but it also means future. In our traditions, the future can be seen in the past.

So the elders say: “Look at the earth.” And in the original word it speaks of this earth in a search to find the guardians, the gardeners who will help take care of it.

That’s why the word “care” is so important to us.

The elders say that this time is for asking whether we are capable of making a new weave. And so we as humans are in this dance between destiny and free will.

Destiny is knowing that there are things where there is nothing to be done. And free will means that it is our decision. And that is the dance we are in.

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Chapter 7: The Nature of Good, Bad & Transformation

The grandfather also used to say this idea that there is nothing good or bad, but rather everything is in process. History and the work of God is advancing.

He would say: “The first time humanity was horrible was just as horrible as it is now. But it was beautiful because it was the first time it was happening, and that was necessary.”

The thing is when something repeats. That repetition is what brings disorder.

It’s not about eliminating, because everything has its essence. The work is to turn it over, to transform it.

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Chapter 8: Chavín — The Center of the Center

Chavín is a very precious gift. There is an essence in that thinking that has the force of the center.

Chavín is a word that has many versions. However, “cha-pín” means the center of the center. It is a complete code where the elders knew, through architecture and through sound, how to find a way to hack this reality.

When one begins to walk the temple, the first thing that happens is that the mind expands. For example with the Estela of Viracocha or the Estela Raimondi, you begin to see figures that develop faces that keep rising. All those faces keep changing.

One has to turn it around, rest, and it happens that in that moment you turn and see another figure. So the whole structure you thought you were seeing breaks and allows you to see from another angle.

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Chapter 9: Chavín as a Culture of Peace & Integration

In everything that has been found in Chavín, not a single weapon has been found. There is not a single record of something that controlled people by force.

In the temple they found a human who had been cooked, so people say “Ah, they were cannibals.” But it was found in a gallery called the Gallery of Offerings, where there is material from the jungle, from the coast, from the highlands. It means people came from everywhere.

Chavín was a laboratory. With that knowledge they knew how to transform a poisonous tuber into food. They brought a possibility of thought and a possibility of encounter.

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Chapter 10: Language as Code — The Deeper Meaning of “Waku”

In the language, thought is written in a codified form. This tool of reading the code that exists in the language helps us understand.

For example, “fang” or “tusk” in central Quechua is “waku” or “waku”. That “wa” is one of the main essences in the reading: it means the unspeakable, the mystery. And “ku” or “kun” has to do with thunder, with the first vibration of materialization.

So the word “waku” is no longer just a tooth. It is speaking of the essence of that which holds the thunder, the power of materialization.

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Chapter 11: Darkness as Mother & Fertilizer (The Kun Principle)

The elders say that darkness is our mother and she is the one who can teach us. When one manages to enter the darkness, it is pure magic. It opens a universe and reminds you that she is our mother.

The work of darkness has everything to do with what the seed needs to break open. It needs rotten things that transform into fertilizer.

The grandfather would laugh and say: “People are afraid of the darkness and say that darkness is bad. But that is exactly what the seed needs to germinate.”

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Chapter 12: The Warrior Poet & Holding Duality

We are here to be the hyoscyamo — the blend of both. We are here to cut through all these false dichotomies and to hold both at the same time.

Yes, surrender. Yes, have intention. Yes to both. To have a surrendered intent.

Yes, be a warrior. Yes, be a poet. Yes to both.

Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman who ever lived, in his free time would take his calligraphy brush and allow the movement of the current in his own being to move through him and create art.

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Chapter 13: Redemption & The Possibility of Transformation

To turn a Nazi into someone who is drinking medicine, serving medicine, living in the jungle, singing songs… That is a great story for the possibility of redemption.

It reminds us that nobody is beyond the reach of that redemption. It only takes the right environment and the right situation. Everyone is reachable.

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Chapter 14: Ancient Timelines & The Technology of Chavín

There are archaeologists who say that for the temple to have been aligned with the procession of the equinoxes, three cycles of precession would have had to pass. That would mean the temple would be around 70,000 years old.

Which would be absurd according to official history. But the message of the temple is precisely to look at all possibilities and hold the paradoxes.

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Chapter 15: Raising Children with New Stories

When we think about all of this, it doesn’t matter. We are here doing what we are doing. Let us do our work of aligning our will with the will of the mystery and enjoy ourselves.

Because for us, it is the law of origin by which our peoples are guided: the duty to enjoy.

Father Time shows us that if we enjoy, he dances and becomes happy. Then he moves.

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Closing

This has been beautiful. There’s so much more that we can talk about and hopefully we will. I’m really grateful that I got to let my listeners in on something that’s been one of the greatest gifts and treasures of my life — getting to know you both.

Thank you for opening your hearts and space for our families to blend and merge. It’s been really beautiful.

(Links to Alejo’s work and the Yayu project/magazine will be shared in the show notes.)

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Fully translated into English for accessibility. Originally a bilingual conversation (Spanish/English) between Aubrey Marcus and Alejo Sanzón.